[Fatty]

I'm hoping that at least one of you reading this has tried this product & experienced the same issue that I am having, so you can shed some light on the best resolve for it.
The receiver halves seems to be squeezing my new hammer a little bit. The performance improves somewhat if I loosen the receiver screws a bit, but not well enough to go out and play in a game-. My A5 R/T will often fart, & just plainly misfire (no ball comes out), until the bolt finally jams in mid path.

Now shortly after I got this marker, I read about polishing the internals, so I did. Fearing taking off too much material, I only used an S.O.S. pad on the receiver halves. Should I now try a fine grit emery cloth, or something? I don't wanna screw up the receiver obviously, so I've been considering cutting out a thin gasket of some sort to place between the receiver halves (blech- I don't like that idea, the reciever will be out-of-round, right?). What do you guys think is the right approach?

(Yes, I've sent TechT an email, but I have to wait 48 hours for a response & I wanna play tomorrow!)

[Zero-Niner]

It shouldn't be jamming at all, sounds like you hammer is milled to the wrong size. I say put the stock back in and go play. Then try and figure out if they sent you a defective part. Polishing the inside is fine if you do it right. I used Steel wool 0000 then finished it off with wheel polish wadding. Worked great for my BT-4.

I wouldn't make a gasket you will just be asking for more troubles.

[Fatty]

It shouldn't be jamming at all, sounds like you hammer is milled to the wrong size. I say put the stock back in and go play. Then try and figure out if they sent you a defective part. Polishing the inside is fine if you do it right. I used Steel wool 0000 then finished it off with wheel polish wadding. Worked great for my BT-4.

I wouldn't make a gasket you will just be asking for more troubles.

Yeah, I don't think the problem is with the new hammer anymore. I've troubleshooting this all freaking day. I re-polished the internals, only quite aggressively this time (wet sanded with 400 grit, then steel wool 0), and put the stock bolt back in, and experienced the same issues. It's not always re-cocking, and sometimes goes into "farting mode." It has also been chopping, which I attribute to same cause of the marker not re-cocking; it's like not enough gas is blowing back to reset the hammer and oprate the cyclone. It's the same thing with either hammer. It must be just coincidental that this problem arose just after installing the new hammer.

Could the valve be the cause of all this? It seems OK to me though... the spring still feels strong.

[SouthPark]

The TechT ultra lite bolt? I often wondered if you put in a lighter hammer if it would carry enough force (F= MxA) to open the poppet long enough to allow enough air to a) fire the ball, make the cyclone do its job and c) return the hammer to cock position. Given that you have decreased the mass do you need to increase the acceleration so that the hammer hits the poppet with enbough FORCE to open the valve long enough to open the valve so as to allow enough HPA out so it can do it's work??? I dunno... anyway... are you using a STOCK hammer spring? Is the ORING on the new hammer lubed and in good working order?


D.

[Fatty]

Yes, the newly issued TechT Zero Kick Hammers come with a heavier spring that's about a half inch shorter than stock, but they also include 2 half inch light springs which I assume one must go at the rear-end of the pin, and the other's a spare. The combined length of the TechT springs equals the length of the stock spring. I've tried the ZKH with just the 1 heavy spring, the stock spring, and the heavy & light spring combined.

I checked the fit of both hammers in the powertube. The ZKH fits nicely- just a hair more snug than my stock hammer, which is seems a tad on the loose side, IMO. The ZKH moves in & out of the powertube pretty freely, whether it's in the receiver or not.

I've just pulled apart the valve since my last post, & just as I expected, it all looks good in there.

Holy crap, I just thought of something... If the grease I'm using is too thick, would it cause these problems? I just give the bolt a light coating of Sleek, but I just realized that I never had any issues without it. I was just using oil in the past, hmmmm.

[Zero-Niner]

(wet sanded with 400 grit, then steel wool 0),

400 grit is way to ruff. you should not of used that ruff of paper. the min. is like 2500, that you use on autobody work. Otherwise you risk removing material and screwing thigs up. that is why they recommend 3000+grit, then steel wool 0000, then mothers aluminum whell polish to finish it off on a cloth dremel polishing wheel.

It sounds like you are having an air issue? are you using a remote? check for blockage in your line?

[SouthPark]

I did my old A5 with a 3000 and a 0000 and oil. Worked super.

I only ever used oil on the internals of my A5. The only part of the A5 that I ever pput grease on was the ratchet knuckle. Oil every where else. May as well try swapping out the grease and just try oil.

[Fatty]

400 grit is way to ruff. you should not of used that ruff of paper.

It sounds like you are having an air issue? are you using a remote? check for blockage in your line?

Yeah, I know. Believe me, I didn't want to, but there was a bit of a high spot the bolt seemed to be hanging up on. Also, the area behind the sear has always been a hang-up when pulling out the bolt assembly. I've always had to loosen the rear screw (the one right by the rear sight) in order to drop the hammer out. Even after my aggressive attack with sandpaper I still have to, although I wont be attacking it anymore. The bolt moves freely inside with the receiver halves tightened up now.

And no, I haven't been using my remote lately. I'm still running CO2, in case it's worth mentioning...

It seems to work OK as long as I keep my ROF slow (but that's not why I bought this hammer ). It srews up once I start trying the sweet spot on my response trigger... maybe it's the grease thickening in the chill of the CO2? Does silicon grease thicken in the cold? I dunno, but now it's time for me to go split my receiver for the 10th time & remove that grease from everything. Gonna oil everything up... gonna go down to Point Blank... gonna cross my fingers & play.

Why do I have a feeling I'll be renting a 98?

[ShadoWalker]

400 grit is way to ruff. you should not of used that ruff of paper.

It sounds like you are having an air issue? are you using a remote? check for blockage in your line?

Yeah, I know. Believe me, I didn't want to, but there was a bit of a high spot the bolt seemed to be hanging up on. Also, the area behind the sear has always been a hang-up when pulling out the bolt assembly. I've always had to loosen the rear screw (the one right by the rear sight) in order to drop the hammer out. Even after my aggressive attack with sandpaper I still have to, although I wont be attacking it anymore. The bolt moves freely inside with the receiver halves tightened up now.

And no, I haven't been using my remote lately. I'm still running CO2, in case it's worth mentioning...

It seems to work OK as long as I keep my ROF slow (but that's not why I bought this hammer ). It srews up once I start trying the sweet spot on my response trigger... maybe it's the grease thickening in the chill of the CO2? Does silicon grease thicken in the cold? I dunno, but now it's time for me to go split my receiver for the 10th time & remove that grease from everything. Gonna oil everything up... gonna go down to Point Blank... gonna cross my fingers & play.

Why do I have a feeling I'll be renting a 98?

Any chance your bottle is siphoning liquid in and freezing up the internals unusually fast? As I understand it if you're running gas on gun with CO2 and the bottle is laying horizontal'ish you are far more likely to wind up shooting liquid through the marker, especially if you're running with over filled tanks. Have you got / tried running it with an expansion chamber and/or a vertical tank carrier and a remote line?

[Zero-Niner]

everywhere I look greese is very, very bad! It causes all kinds of troubles in compressed air equipment and paintball markers. The only thing you should be using is oil, made for markers or compressed air equipment, which have no petroleum.

This maybe your problem and teh grease is causing pressure issues and lowering your consitancy in gas pressure.

[Fatty]

Thanks for the help you guys, but I've got this narrowed down to a problem with my cyclone. Not sure exactly what that issue is about... To operate it manually and slowly everything seems fine. But when I push the rod in with my thumb, then slip my thumb off allowing it to snap back, it advances a notch and a half, sometimes two! You can see the same effect when the marker is gassed up while firing with no paint. The marker seems to be working great with no paint by the way.

What seems to be happening, is that a ball will get jammed between a paddle and the front bolt while it's in the forward position. It is this ball jam that has been preventing the return of the hammer, which sometimes remains up against the valve, causing all the farting, or sometimes it just slows its return enough, that I have to manually re-cock.

I have an after-market metal ratchet assembly for the cyclone which is supposed to never wear out . Turns out this isn't true. If you have an after market ratchet assembly that has lasted years and years and is still going strong, let me know where you got it, k?

[ShadoWalker]

everywhere I look greese is very, very bad! It causes all kinds of troubles in compressed air equipment and paintball markers. The only thing you should be using is oil, made for markers or compressed air equipment, which have no petroleum.

This maybe your problem and teh grease is causing pressure issues and lowering your consitancy in gas pressure.

Careful with the generalizations there my friend! Most electro markers require grease and don't get along so well with oil, most purely mechanical markers run on oil and don't like grease. Make sure you know your toys and what works best for them... If you're not sure research it / ask around here.

[Pwnty McOwny]

i have a problem sort of like this cept its my front bolt on my aluminum power tube for my A5 that is jamming and not coming back

[SouthPark]

Thanks for the help you guys, but I've got this narrowed down to a problem with my cyclone. Not sure exactly what that issue is about... To operate it manually and slowly everything seems fine. But when I push the rod in with my thumb, then slip my thumb off allowing it to snap back, it advances a notch and a half, sometimes two! You can see the same effect when the marker is gassed up while firing with no paint. The marker seems to be working great with no paint by the way.

What seems to be happening, is that a ball will get jammed between a paddle and the front bolt while it's in the forward position. It is this ball jam that has been preventing the return of the hammer, which sometimes remains up against the valve, causing all the farting, or sometimes it just slows its return enough, that I have to manually re-cock.

I have an after-market metal ratchet assembly for the cyclone which is supposed to never wear out . Turns out this isn't true. If you have an after market ratchet assembly that has lasted years and years and is still going strong, let me know where you got it, k?

Have you opened up the bottom of the cyclone (three screws holding the bottom cover plate on). Ratchet not cracked or broken? Spring catching AOK?

[Fatty]

The Ratchet is looking kinda beat up. With the bottom off I have watched it malfunction; The catch spring has left a gouge in its path. Now when the piston spring snaps back, the ratchet turns 1.5 notches. If you just allow the piston to come out slower it works OK. The catch spring is trying to do what it's supposed to, it's OK.

So... anybody know who makes a nice hard aftermarket ratchet for this thing? I'd rather the ratchet chew up the spring (duh) than the other way...

This post has been edited by Fatty: 18 April 2010 - 09:36 PM

[Rockfrog]

have you properly adjusted your R/T? it sounds to me like you're sending too much air to the cyclone and not enough for the R/T. ADjust the flow control to favor the R/T.
the Tech-T will wear a groove in the ratchet .... perfectly normal and doesn't effect operation. Only problem I ever had with them was a tight pivot pin. I'm using a JCS ratchet system now and prefer it personally.
I've found with the ZKH swapping to BT springs is better. I also found swapping to a lighter valve spring will decrease many issues. This will increase dwell times and allow a greater range for main spring tuning. An inline regulator is aslso a good idea at that point.
SP is correct that the ZKH will impart less force on the valve (hence my choice of a lighter valve spring to compensate) ... my ZKH is original run so I didn't get any spring with mine. But from experience using a heavy main, with stock valve spring and the ZKH will net you a maximum of about 250ish Fps after they've broken in. If you've tuned the marker for stock specs .... you'll see issues with the swap.
So it comes with a heavier main spring .... that also increases force required to re-cock which if not in 'tune' with flow will cause farting as the hammer won't catch.
as for the stick front bolt ... are you positive it's sticking? the bolt and hammer are linked so it will stay locked to the rear when cocked. During the cyclic action the bolt does not travel all the way back on the power tube as the hammer does not (should not) travel back that far.
Exactly what aftermarket parts do you have installed?
It's best to start from stock when trouble shooting. Get it working the way it was ... then add one thing at a time and re-tune. Sometimes the combination of parts compound all the small inconsistencies into one major issue.

[Fatty]

have you properly adjusted your R/T? it sounds to me like you're sending too much air to the cyclone and not enough for the R/T. ADjust the flow control to favor the R/T.
the Tech-T will wear a groove in the ratchet .... perfectly normal and doesn't effect operation. Only problem I ever had with them was a tight pivot pin. I'm using a JCS ratchet system now and prefer it personally.
I've found with the ZKH swapping to BT springs is better. I also found swapping to a lighter valve spring will decrease many issues. This will increase dwell times and allow a greater range for main spring tuning. An inline regulator is aslso a good idea at that point.
SP is correct that the ZKH will impart less force on the valve (hence my choice of a lighter valve spring to compensate) ... my ZKH is original run so I didn't get any spring with mine. But from experience using a heavy main, with stock valve spring and the ZKH will net you a maximum of about 250ish Fps after they've broken in. If you've tuned the marker for stock specs .... you'll see issues with the swap.
So it comes with a heavier main spring .... that also increases force required to re-cock which if not in 'tune' with flow will cause farting as the hammer won't catch.
as for the stick front bolt ... are you positive it's sticking? the bolt and hammer are linked so it will stay locked to the rear when cocked. During the cyclic action the bolt does not travel all the way back on the power tube as the hammer does not (should not) travel back that far.
Exactly what aftermarket parts do you have installed?
It's best to start from stock when trouble shooting. Get it working the way it was ... then add one thing at a time and re-tune. Sometimes the combination of parts compound all the small inconsistencies into one major issue.

As long as I don't have any paintballs loaded, the marker fires as it should. There's no recocking or jamming issues whatsoever (with TechT's heavier spring). My RT is tuned nicely. The whole farting issue happens when the cyclone advances 1.5 notches, and wedges a ball between a paddle and the front bolt. The extra resistance seems to be enough to prevent recocking.

I'm aware the groove around the cyclone axel teeth is normal wear, however at the same time I neglected to grease it properly. TechT recommends greasing every 5000 shots- I've probably let it go for 30,000 or 40,000... I have to wonder if my groove has gotten a little out of hand. I'm not sure how you can "send too much air" to the cyclone... the piston rod can only move so far... it's the spring in the piston housing that advances the axel, and now it seems to have too much "snap" because now it is advancing 1.5 notches.

I'm done messing around with this for now. My new TechT cyclone axel is in the mail, so we'll see what happens when I replace the worn one. I just hope it's here before the May long weekend.

My gat has:
Polished internals.
Fully upgraded cyclone (TechT copycat stuff: QEPH, lightning rod, aluminum ratchet assembly, squishy paddles).
TechT Zero Kick Hammer with TechT's heavier spring.
Response trigger.
Double Trigger with return spring removed.

[SouthPark]

Heh,

Is there excessive "wiggle" between the squishy paddles and the feeder axle? I beta tested the first versions of those squishy paddles and they had excessive play in them which in turn caused jamms and misfeeds.

Question: if you return the stock hammer and spring set... is it all good?

[Fatty]

Heh,

Is there excessive "wiggle" between the squishy paddles and the feeder axle? I beta tested the first versions of those squishy paddles and they had excessive play in them which in turn caused jamms and misfeeds.

Question: if you return the stock hammer and spring set... is it all good?

Nah... that was the first thing I checked out- it's alright. It's not the paddles at all. I pulled the bottom cover off of the cyclone & watched the ratchet to see exactly what was going on.

I also retried the stock hammer and spring and it's still <swear filter>. That was when I first noticed a ball wedged between a paddle & the front bolt while the gat farted away 1500 psi.

I have to wonder if I tried using the stock piston housing, if the extra air resistance would slow the return of the piston & rotation of the axel enough to allow the catch spring to catch... But then why the <swear filter> would I wanna slow it down? That's why I put the QEPH on in the first place! So, if it's still <swear filter> up once I install the new axel, then I dunno... I guess the old piston housing goes back on. Now where did I put that thing?... Oh yeah the <swear filter>' garbage! ...<swear filter>!

This post has been edited by Fatty: 24 April 2010 - 05:25 PM

[ShadoWalker]

I'm curious, how is the tension / pressure of the paddles controlled? If you're getting excessive pressure causing deformation of the balls and "ball and a half" or excessive side pressure on the bolt to jam it up my general guess would be that you need to reduce the force the cyclone puts on the ball stack...

I'm not overly familiar with the A5 but it sounds similar to what an over wound Q-loader will do to a low-force bolt system, the force on the ball stack (and side of the bolt) can be enough to jam the bolt either backwards (from an extra half a ball being squished into the chamber) or forwards from sufficient side pressure on the bolt preventing the normal return force from being sufficient.

[Fatty]

I'm curious, how is the tension / pressure of the paddles controlled? If you're getting excessive pressure causing deformation of the balls and "ball and a half" or excessive side pressure on the bolt to jam it up my general guess would be that you need to reduce the force the cyclone puts on the ball stack...

I'm not overly familiar with the A5 but it sounds similar to what an over wound Q-loader will do to a low-force bolt system, the force on the ball stack (and side of the bolt) can be enough to jam the bolt either backwards (from an extra half a ball being squished into the chamber) or forwards from sufficient side pressure on the bolt preventing the normal return force from being sufficient.

There isn't a ball stack- no feedneck.
The balls are fed through the side of the gat. There's a curved metal finger that guides the ball into the breach when the paddle advances.
There is no real control of the paddle pressure. The paddles move by the force of the spring snapping back in the piston housing.

Oh, I guess by paddle pressure you must mean like in a force-feed hopper system? It's non-applicable with the cyclone. When the hammer hits the poppet valve, some air fires the ball (duh) and the rest blows back the hammer, while some of this "exhaust" goes out through the side ports. One port leads to the response trigger, the other leads to the cyclone piston housing. The air acts on the piston which is on the end of a rod with a return spring around it. This rod is hinged to a ratchet. The air shoves the piston and rod, making the ratchet advance to the next notch of the axel teeth, while compressing the spring. The spring then snaps back, causing the axel to turn one notch, which the paddles are attached to, which pushes the next ball into the breach.

Are you that guy who puts a Q-Loader on everything, whom I first met at the Battle of Midway, then again at the hump? The same guy who told me a Vibe would be a good gat for my kid? Sorry I forgot your name... again...

This post has been edited by Fatty: 24 April 2010 - 06:01 PM

[ShadoWalker]

There isn't a ball stack- no feedneck.
The balls are fed through the side of the gat. There's a curved metal finger that guides the ball into the breach when the paddle advances.
There is no real control of the paddle pressure. The paddles move by the force of the spring snapping back in the piston housing.

Oh, I guess by paddle pressure you must mean like in a force-feed hopper system? It's non-applicable with the cyclone. When the hammer hits the poppet valve, some air fires the ball (duh) and the rest blows back the hammer, while some of this "exhaust" goes out through the side ports. One port leads to the response trigger, the other leads to the cyclone piston housing. The air acts on the piston which is on the end of a rod with a return spring around it. This rod is hinged to a ratchet. The air shoves the piston and rod, making the ratchet advance to the next notch of the axel teeth, while compressing the spring. The spring then snaps back, causing the axel to turn one notch, which the paddles are attached to, which pushes the next ball into the breach.

Are you that guy who puts a Q-Loader on everything, whom I first met at the Battle of Midway, then again at the hump? The same guy who told me a Vibe would be a good gat for my kid? Sorry I forgot your name... again...

You're thinking of Freebird, I think I'm the one that got him into Q-loaders though (created a monster).

You just have an extremely short stack (the one in the breech and the next ball being pushed in behind it) unless the balls are actually isolated and NOT under pressure or que'd up in the feed port until after the bolt has returned. From your description it sounds like the spring controls the paddle tension / force behind the feed as compression of the spring provides the drive / force to advance the paddles and push the next ball in.

I have no idea if that's a factor in the problem you're seeing, but I thought I'd bring it up as a possability.

[Fatty]

You just have an extremely short stack (the one in the breech and the next ball being pushed in behind it) unless the balls are actually isolated and NOT under pressure or que'd up in the feed port until after the bolt has returned. From your description it sounds like the spring controls the paddle tension / force behind the feed as compression of the spring provides the drive / force to advance the paddles and push the next ball in.

I have no idea if that's a factor in the problem you're seeing, but I thought I'd bring it up as a possability.

Yeah, the balls are isolated. The tip of a paddle should block the hole to the breach so the ball doesn't come back out. The next ball in line is separated by the same paddle. The more I describe this thing, the more it amazes me that it actually works! Wait a minute... well it amazes me that it used to work.

[SouthPark]

Heh Fatty,

When the parts arrive or some other effort solve the issues... post up the fix (how was it solved) please. I hate these puzzles and love to hear how the issues are fixed.

[Fatty]

Heh Fatty,

When the parts arrive or some other effort solve the issues... post up the fix (how was it solved) please. I hate these puzzles and love to hear how the issues are fixed.

Well, I've just installed the new ratchet axel and tested. There has been some improvement, but she's still choppin' from time to time (2 chops out of 140 shots)- same cause- the ratchet is pulling 1.5 notches sometimes, just not as often. It wasn't a high rate of fire either. I seem to be having a little trouble with the response trigger now. My sweet spot has kinda vanished... I may have to fiddle with the trigger- do a little shimming perhaps, but that's another issue.

So, for my next stab at fixing this cyclone issue, is I'm going to undo what TechT reccomended, and that is I'm gonna put the un-trimmed stock spring back in the ratchet (the spring that applies pressure to the axel). TechT suggests that in order to get the cyclone working as quickly as possible, you can trim 1 coil off of this spring, so that you don't have needless, excessive pressure against the axel. Mind you, the un-touched stock spring was still installed when all this trouble began, so it's kinda doubtful that it's gonna help much. But who knows? Maybe that little bit of extra drag is all I need now to stop that extra half-notch advancement.